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Today we are talking about plant-based medicine for the furry members of your family! Hosts Bryan and Kellan sit down with VETCBD founder, Dr. Tim Shu to dive into the world of CBD for pets. Stream this episode to learn more about Veterinarian CBD Animal vs human cannabis response Higher quality of life for animals Endocannabinoid System Dr. Tim Shu is the founder and chief executive officer of VETCBD. As chief executive officer, Dr. Shu manages direction and strategy at VETCBD and oversees research and development, marketing, sales, and support. Listen to The Dime podcast to learn about the exploding cannabis industry from the ones building it. Join us as we uncover the real How and Why across every topic
[00:00:00] Bryan Fields: This is the dime, dive into the cannabis and hemp industry through trends, insights, predictions, and tangent.
[00:00:11] What’s up guys. Welcome back to the episode of the dime I’m Brian Fields. And with me as always is my right-hand man Kellen Finney. And this week we’ve got a very special guest, Dr. Tim Shu, CEO, and founder of vet CBD factor.
[00:00:22] Shoot, thanks for taking the time. How you doing today?
[00:00:25] Dr, Tim Shu: Hey, thanks for having me. Appreciate it. I’m doing very well. Thank you, Kellan. How you doing?
[00:00:29] Kellan Finney: I’m doing really well. It’s nice to have another west coaster on the podcast, and I’m really excited to talk about cannabinoids and. Yeah.
[00:00:36] Bryan Fields: And you see how I quickly tried to get past that, but yes, he’s on the west coast, so we’ll put another one in the west coast.
[00:00:42] So Dr. Shu for our listeners that are unfamiliar with you, can you give a little bit about a brief background about you and how you got into the
[00:00:48] Dr, Tim Shu: cannabis? Yeah, sure. So I’m a veterinarian practice in general emergency critical care medicine. And you know, for me, the, the way that I’ve approached cannabis and cannabinoid therapeutics [00:01:00] is that if there is value in cannabis, then we really owe it to our patients, our clients, to be able to.
[00:01:05] Really find out what that value is, right. Even if there is no value, then we’ve got to be able to say, okay, you know, we’ve done our due diligence. We’ve looked at it. And we’ve either found that there is value or there isn’t value, but it turns out there is massive value in cannabinoid therapeutics and understanding the endocannabinoid system.
[00:01:22] Now, one of the big problems is that we’re, we’re not educating. Not only the clients that benefit the most from it, but we’re not educating our healthcare professionals about it. And so we’re really doing a huge disservice to the medical community and its clients and patients. And so for me, that’s how I got into the cannabis industry in 2015.
[00:01:41] So take
[00:01:42] Bryan Fields: us through vet CBD, the origin of that, how that came about and kind of what led you to wanting to dive
[00:01:48] Dr, Tim Shu: into this path. Yeah. So, you know, I hadn’t heard about how cannabis. Could be beneficial for humans. And for me, it was always the question of, okay, if cannabis can be [00:02:00] beneficial for humans, are we able to make it beneficial for animals as well?
[00:02:03] Right. Because most people, when they think about cannabis, they think about the intoxicating aspects of it. Right. They think about the THC. They think about people getting high and things like that. But what they, at least back then, you know, what people didn’t realize was that cannabis is not just THC.
[00:02:18] Cannabis is CBD as well. You know, it’s also CBC CBG, et cetera, et cetera. But there are ways that we can utilize it to be able to make it so that it’s not intoxicating for animals. So it doesn’t get them high, but there is still able to get the medical benefits. I think that’s
[00:02:35] Bryan Fields: really well said. And I want to kind of dive into more of those specifics.
[00:02:38] So some of the products you have you listed on your website, you talked about the ratios and the tend to ones. Now, my question to you before we kind of dive into some of the specifics are, are pet CBD products similar in their formulations as the human CBD products,
[00:02:51] Dr, Tim Shu: there are different in the, in the formulation.
[00:02:53] You know, first is the ingredient Stripe. There are ingredients out there that are [00:03:00] perfectly fine for people to ingest, but can actually be toxic to them. And so the one that everyone knows is chocolate, right? You, you never give your dogs chocolate. But other things like raisins, for example, raisins or grapes, people don’t realize that you’re not supposed to give your dogs raisins or grapes, right.
[00:03:16] Because it could cause kidney damage, but then there’s also another one called xylitol, which is a sweetener that’s actually found in. Tons of different human products, pretty much most of the chewing gums out there that you’ll find have, Zatanna but even things like toothpaste can have xylitol in it inside.
[00:03:32] It’s all can actually be very toxic for dogs and you never want them to get into anything that contains xylitol. So, you know, first and foremost is the ingredients and make sure, making sure that the ingredients are safe for the animals, but also dosing matters. Right. You know, the 160 pound person is going to.
[00:03:48] Probably take a different dose than a 10 pound dog. So that’s the other big thing that can be very different when it comes to humans and animals. And then also, you know, the, the formulation in terms of how [00:04:00] you’re utilizing THC, for example, can also be different. What’s important to understand is that THC can actually be effectively utilized in animals, but they can’t be more sensitive to it.
[00:04:11] And so it needs to be dosed and formulated properly. Is
[00:04:14] Bryan Fields: the dosing based on the weight of the animal in most regards or is there other factors outside of the way to incorporate in like breed
[00:04:21] Dr, Tim Shu: dosing based on weight is one thing. Now, whether there are breed differences. I don’t think anyone really knows that quite yet.
[00:04:31] There are certainly could be, you know, we know that in terms of veterinary medicine, there are specific breeds that may have a different metabolic issues that are attached to that specific. Now, what we do see is that there are a lot of individual variations in terms of metabolism and the endocannabinoid system.
[00:04:51] And we call this pharmacol kinetics. And so what that means is you can have two dogs that are the same, same way. Let’s say that 50 pounds and you give them the [00:05:00] exact same amount of CBD. Let’s say you give them 10 milligrams of CBD and one absorbs it a lot more than the other one. And another one may metabolize it a lot more quickly than another one does.
[00:05:10] This is just individual pharmacokinetics. And that’s, what’s really fascinating is that we do see variations in that. And so, you know, the whole thing about how to properly administrate for animals is based off of specific individuals, just like it is for humans, right? So the general mantra of go low, start slow by starting at a lower amount and then gradually increasing it to the optimal effect, applies to animals as.
[00:05:36] And dive in
[00:05:36] Bryan Fields: there. What’s your thoughts on that? My thoughts are
[00:05:39] Kellan Finney: in relation to why I would be wanting to administer a cannabinoid to my right. I mean, I have a dog and like the weight factor I’ve, I’ve explored CBD products in the past as well for one of my, my parents actually having the older and older dog that was struggling with like joint pain, which I thought might kind of increase its enjoyment [00:06:00] of life.
[00:06:01] And the, the weight thing was one item that the brand I was looking at it, they kind of divided it into like, okay, here’s a dosage for dogs that are zero 30 pounds, 30 to 60, 60, and up kind of the situation. Right. And my mind just kept going back to why, what, where are those dosages? Tied to, from a pharmacokinetic standpoint, I mean, is this something Dr.
[00:06:25] Shoe that we’re basing off of like previous studies, can you kind of elaborate on where some of those the dosage came came from? Not only because it’s the mass of the animal, right? How much it weighs, but the amount of CBD that you’re administrating do, do we know where those kind of dosage came from is some studies or, or is it just kind of a.
[00:06:45] Lower lower concentrations and work from there. She kind of walk us through how that
[00:06:50] came
[00:06:50] Bryan Fields: to be.
[00:06:51] Dr, Tim Shu: It’s actually a really interesting question. So for us, it’s it’s what we experimented with and, and found to be a good starting [00:07:00] point. So we have starting point recommendations and then how to increase it from there.
[00:07:05] Now what’s interesting is that some of the published studies out there, some of the clinical trials out there actually use much, much higher amounts than what we use. Now. There was another interesting study that came out of Colorado state university that was looking at. Using CBD in arthritic dogs, they did find that it was beneficial for these dogs.
[00:07:25] But the interesting thing that they found was that the dose at which was, which it was effective, was all over the. So I think you had as, as little as something like 0.3 milligrams per kilogram, going up all the way to like 4.1 milligram per kilogram. So like over a 10 times difference. Right. And so that’s something that’s really interesting.
[00:07:44] And that just goes to show you that it matters. The, the individual matters. Another thing that’s really interesting, especially on the hemp side of things is that there is no. Regulation in regards to the testing, the content of cannabinoids in our product. [00:08:00] So, you know, there’s time and time. There’s been multiple studies out there that have looked and said that you know, based off of, you know, testing, you know, 30 or 50 over the counter hemp CBD products, a number of them don’t actually.
[00:08:13] Sit within that 90 to 110% of the label claim. So, you know, for example, if something says it has a hundred milligrams of CBD in it in order to be accurate, it has to fall within 90 to a hundred, 10%. So 90 to 110 milligrams of CBD. But time and time again, multiple studies have shown that a lot of products out there don’t actually contain that 90 to 110%.
[00:08:38] Right. And some of them actually don’t contain any CBD. So that’s the problem is, you know, people are using these products sometimes and finding out that, you know, they’re not seeing any benefits, but the issue could be that they’re actually not getting what they’re painful. So what
[00:08:55] Bryan Fields: would you suggest to someone that comes to you and says, Hey, I bought this product.
[00:08:59] It didn’t [00:09:00] work for my dog. Would you recommend trying different products? We dramatic recommend staying with the same product three times. The point you brought up is, is a really important one. One that we’ve heard time and time again, is that people have this issue with their dog. They’re looking for something to help their dog, and then they have this different experience and it could be off putting for them where they, they take a different approach to go with a different style product.
[00:09:21] And it could be the wrong choice just based on what you said. So what would you suggest.
[00:09:25] Dr, Tim Shu: Well first, what I would say is Luke your veterinarian, right? Yeah. I understand that years ago, I’ve always told people this right. Talk to your veterinarian first and foremost, make sure they’re in that involved in that conversation.
[00:09:37] And you know, for a long time you know, people come back to me and say, I’ve tried talking to my veterinarian. They refuse to talk to me about it or they don’t know how to answer my questions. They don’t, they’re not educated about it, but slowly over time, we’ve seen that change and that’s, that’s awesome.
[00:09:54] Right. That’s progress. And we are starting to see more and more veterinarians feel comfortable being involved in that [00:10:00] conversation. So first and foremost, talk to your veterinarian about it, right? Because you want to make sure that whatever you’re, you’re trying to address can be adequately addressed by cannabinoid therapeutics.
[00:10:10] And we are seeing more veterinarians be educated about it. We do do a lot of presentations for veterinarians about. You know, the, the things that cannabis can be utilized for and how to look for quality and how to guide your clients through this process, to make sure that they’re getting quality products.
[00:10:27] But the other thing is that any, any product that they purchase should have a COA tied to that specific product and that COA should be available on the website. Or if you reach out to the company, they should be able to provide that for you. And a COA is a certificate of analysis. You know, if you really want to get down to it and you can also verify.
[00:10:45] With the lab, that random COA, that the COA is accurate. But you know, the other thing is. Sometimes we see products are made with CBD isolate, and thus far, the evidence shows that the entourage [00:11:00] effect that theory of synergism between multiple components of the cannabis plant does appear to hold true.
[00:11:06] We do have more evidence in favor of the entourage effect than against it. And so if a product is being made with CBD isolate that patient or that client may actually do better with something that’s false.
[00:11:19] Bryan Fields: Just like thinking through that, but I mean, that’s, that’s a great find and I think that’s so important, but then I wonder Dr.
[00:11:25] Shu that puts so much emphasis back on the individual to be educated about the experience, to kind of go through these steps and challenges, which is hard, right? In those moments where your, your animal is suffering and you’re looking for an area and, and reaching in these different approaches. So again, to continue on that, Would you suggest that if your pet has anxiety or is older as arthritis, can they lean on similar products?
[00:11:48] Should they have to look for two different products? What do you suggest there? Can you clarify that question a little bit? Sure. So for example, let’s say you have an older dog who has arthritis. And anxiety can the [00:12:00] same product be used to serve both purposes, or would you suggest looking for an individual product allocated for the arthritis one and a different one for the anxiety?
[00:12:09] One?
[00:12:10] Dr, Tim Shu: It depends on the individual definitely depends on the individual because the, the way that we, we see cannabis is that it’s an additional tool in the toolbox. Right. And it’s not something that. It can be used for anything and everything. Right. Having been in the dispensary space for, for a while, I’ve kind of seen some of the early marketing and you know, I’ve kind of also seen this mentality of plants over pills.
[00:12:38] But, you know, really it’s not, it’s not plants over pills. It’s not pills over plants. It’s, it’s both right. You have to be able to utilize the right tool for the right situation. And in some cases traditional pharmaceuticals are going to work better. In other cases, cannabinoid therapeutics may work.
[00:12:56] And in other cases, a combination of the two [00:13:00] may work best. Right? So it just depends on the individual and their situation.
[00:13:04] Bryan Fields: I have a question. So,
[00:13:05] Kellan Finney: I mean, in terms of the different tools in reference to, to candidates
[00:13:10] Bryan Fields: right now is kind of CBD and THC are the main tools being implement. My experience with THC in dogs is that when a dog eats cannabis, they kind of
[00:13:21] Kellan Finney: have like a little freak out session.
[00:13:22] Right? Like I just remember my one of my really good buddies, his dog in college ate a bunch of cannabis and like, they found it like under a table shaking, like it was urinating uncontrollably and like those kinds of things. So. My question is some of the products out there, therefore dogs include THC.
[00:13:40] What kind of benefit is THC bringing to a dog? And what’s that threshold where they actually have kind of like a serious reaction to it.
[00:13:49] Dr, Tim Shu: Yeah. And a lot of the products out there are full spectrum and any full spectrum product does have a certain amount of THC in it. What’s important to [00:14:00] understand is that.
[00:14:01] THC, the effects of THC are boast dependent. Right. Which is pretty much the case with everything else. And what we see a lot of times with cannabinoids is that they have by phasic properties. Right? So what that means is that you at lower ends, you get a different effect than you may at higher ends for.
[00:14:20] And one of the things that’s really interesting about THC is that at lower doses it’s anxiety, meaning that it can actually help with anxiety at higher doses. It can be anxiety Genet, meaning that it can generate or create anxiety. This has to do with how it works on the different receptors in the different parts of the brain.
[00:14:39] But it’s the same thing with people, right? If, if a person took two and a half milligrams of THC, They may be okay. They may maybe be calm and relaxed right now. If they took 250 milligrams of THC, that’s going to be a different story. So it’s a very similar situation that applies here. Right? It’s really the dose [00:15:00] that makes a difference in what people don’t realize is that this can be applied to so many other things in life, right.
[00:15:05] Taking a daily vitamin that’s great, right. Taking a bottle of daily. Every day, that’s probably a very, very bad idea. Right? And so it’s the same thing with, for example like salt, right? You need salt. It’s an important part of your, your diet in nutrient requirements. But you, if you take in too much salt, that’s unhealthy for you, right?
[00:15:24] That’s not good for you. Same thing with oxygen, you need oxygen to live and survive. But you can’t breathe a hundred percent pure oxygen. Eventually you get oxygen toxicity from that. So, you know, it applies to just about everything in life is finding the right amount. So
[00:15:39] Bryan Fields: we found out through experience that sometimes when you take too much THC, you can have CBD to kind of have that kill switch and that off putting experience and kind of bring you back down.
[00:15:48] Does that work similarly in animals where hypothetically, if a dog. Consume too much THC, which I do have experience with, and it was awful. You can give the dog CBD in order to kind of [00:16:00] help mellow out. Is that.
[00:16:02] Dr, Tim Shu: It’s an interesting question. And I think that that’s, it’s definitely one that’s up for debate.
[00:16:06] There’s evidence that kind of points in either direction. You know, some say that you know, the CBD has to be taken either before or with the THC, but whether or not THC can lessen some of the intoxicating side effects. Of THC. I think that remains to be seen. I, I don’t have any good evidence to say one way or the other right now.
[00:16:29] So continuing
[00:16:30] Bryan Fields: on just amassing for personal experience, hypothetically, if the dog got into, let’s say the leftover bowl, would that be enough THC to possibly cause it one of those higher effects, if it’s a smaller weight dog or does it, it needs to be consumed in a different way outside of let’s say grounded.
[00:16:46] Dr, Tim Shu: So, well, the, the ground of flower that depends, you know, grounded in general flour, you get more of the, the acids. So for example, like THCA, THC is not intoxicating. Now, [00:17:00] if it’s decarboxylated from THCA into THC, that’s a different story. But it just depends, you know? So the, the thing is that when people are making edibles, they tend to put a fairly large amount of THC.
[00:17:12] And so, you know, if, if there’s ever a cause for concern, easiest thing or the safest thing, and the best thing to do would to take your dog to your veterinarian. Right. Because the other thing to consider is what other ingredients could they have? So a lot of times you may have you know, when people are making edibles or mixing anything with like chocolate and butter and things like that, that may cause GI upset or chocolate toxicity in those dogs.
[00:17:38] So, you know, if, if there’s ever a cause for concern from ingestion like that, the best thing is to bring your dog to your veterinarian. Are there
[00:17:46] Bryan Fields: any recent research that you’ve discovered or read about that you’re excited for the pet space, any minor cannabinoids that you’re really excited about to kind of integrate into
[00:17:55] Dr, Tim Shu: the future?
[00:17:56] Yeah. I mean, I think this is something that’s that has a lot of potential, [00:18:00] you know, right now the market is really pushing CBG CBN. And CBC, but the reality what’s interesting is that the research on those molecules is it’s still very early stages. You know, we have preclinical research that’s out there.
[00:18:18] So, you know, looking at. CBG CBC and its effect on maybe mice in rats and, you know, cells that are sitting in test tubes or Petri dishes. But we don’t really have any good clinical trials that are looking at those cannabinoids. And I think that there’s potential there in those cannabinoids. Exactly what we’re not quite sure of.
[00:18:39] We do have some internal research that we’ve done. And so there are some some formulations that we’ve come up that. Actually do seem to be more beneficial in certain cases than just utilizing full spectrum CBD. So we’re pretty excited about that. I
[00:18:53] Kellan Finney: have a question is all a million endocannabinoid systems, almost identical.
[00:18:58] From like [00:19:00] a receptor and metabolic perspective, I guess, for an easier way to phrase it is the CB one receptor and CDT receptor in dogs, the same CB one and CB two receptor that would be in humans from like a structure standpoint as well as then. My followup question would be, is it same for like dogs and cats?
[00:19:18] How much research has been done on understanding the endocannabinoid system in
[00:19:23] Dr, Tim Shu: species outside of humans? Yeah, that’s a great question. And in terms of the endocannabinoid system, speaking of it from an evolutionary perspective, it’s an ancient system, right? It’s been around for millions and millions of years, and that’s why we have it in all vertebrae animals.
[00:19:41] So. Whether it’s you know, mammals, birds, fish, reptiles, they all have an endocannabinoid system. And in fact, some invertebrate animals have endocannabinoid systems as well. So we know from an evolutionary standpoint that this system has been around for a very, very long time. The other thing that we know is that even though it’s similar in terms of its [00:20:00] function in animals, right, it’s its main overarching goal is homeostasis.
[00:20:05] Plays that role in a number of things, mood, appetite, sleep, metabolism, inflammation, reproduction, but we do know that there are species differentiators differences, right? It’s not going to be the same across species. One of the most remarkable things that everybody you know, seems to have heard about is that dogs have a higher concentration of CB one receptors and a portion of the brain called the cerebellum compared to other species that have.
[00:20:32] Now the going back to your CB one, CB two receptor question. We do know that the CB one, CB two receptors across species are similar, but they’re not exactly the same. There are some slight differences between the CB one, CB two receptor in a, in a dog and a human in a mouse and a rat. You said
[00:20:49] Bryan Fields: that dogs have a bigger CB one receptors.
[00:20:52] More higher costs, higher
[00:20:53] Dr, Tim Shu: concentration, higher concentration in their share of bone of CB one receptors. So why,
[00:20:59] Bryan Fields: [00:21:00] what would that mean support sensitive? Would they
[00:21:02] Kellan Finney: be more sensitive to, to the molecules that bind with
[00:21:05] Bryan Fields: their CB one
[00:21:06] Dr, Tim Shu: receptor? Yeah, exactly. So they can be more sensitive to molecules that bind with the CB one receptor.
[00:21:12] And so THC is a partial agonist, so the CB one receptors. And so that means that they are more sensitive to teach. That’s cool.
[00:21:21] Bryan Fields: So let’s, let’s go through the product formulation. Do you start historically, have you started with an idea from a conception saying we’d want to go with a ratio or are you starting more with research and working through, take us through the process from idea to end
[00:21:33] Dr, Tim Shu: product?
[00:21:34] Yeah, it’s really interesting because in terms of the research there, there’s a lot of pre-clinical research out there that’s been done. Right. So. You know, you’ll, you’ll find studies that say you know, this or that cannabinoid was able to do this in mice or rats or it had this effect on cells in a Petri dish.
[00:21:52] And so that pre-clinical research is, is helpful because it provides a hypothesis. But then you, you have to come up with the [00:22:00] formulation to be able to test that hypothesis on a patient group that hasn’t had clinical trials. Run on it before. And so it’s a mix of taking the research that has been done and experimenting and trying different formulations in a real-world environment and seeing what works best.
[00:22:16] So that’s, that’s the simplest way for me to put it. It’s the timeframe for something like. Depends. I mean, you can have some things you know, and I know that certainly in some cases, we’re like, yeah, you know, what we’ll do is over the course of six months and it ends up being 12 months and it’s ongoing.
[00:22:32] I think other stuff. Yeah. I mean, there’s other projects that we’ve had that it’s, it’s run longer than what we hope for. Yeah. You’d be surprised, you know, when it comes to pharmaceuticals you know, in, in the pharmaceutical industry, going from the beginning to the end phase until the, the the patient’s actually able to benefit from pharmaceutical that could take decades,
[00:22:51] Kellan Finney: The pharmaceutical development, dog’s the same as pharmaceutical development timelines in humans.
[00:22:56] Is it, how does that having those processes. Cause like there is [00:23:00] there’s narcotics that are approved, like painkillers, right? Those are approved in humans and the same molecules approved in animals as well. Is there some, do they overlap like
[00:23:08] Dr, Tim Shu: that? Yeah. So, you know, there, there is some overlap in terms of you know, animal and human pharmaceuticals, you know, there, there are some.
[00:23:17] Pharmaceuticals that humans use that are used in, in, in the veterinary world as well. And some that are not just because they’re, there are some that are safe for people, but that are toxic for animals. So there are also veterinary drugs that are specifically developed for animals.
[00:23:33] Bryan Fields: Okay. I was going to say, all trials start with mice.
[00:23:36] Is they have equal starting ground or is that not.
[00:23:39] Dr, Tim Shu: A lot of them do, you know, a lot of times the humans, they try to use models that reflect human systems. So you know, it’s not always in mice, you know, sometimes they may use pigs for example. So on
[00:23:50] Bryan Fields: your website, I read about your corporate social responsibility policy for every bottle purchase.
[00:23:54] From our site, we donate a bottle to rescue organizations so we can help the helpers. Why is that so [00:24:00] important for your organization to continue the message.
[00:24:04] Dr, Tim Shu: Well, for me, my perspective has always been that business should be utilized as a vehicle for philanthropy. Right? So as a business, we always have to be looking at how can we give back?
[00:24:15] How can we. Improve the world. How can we leave it a better place than we found it? And there’s a lot of organizations out there that are trying to improve the world and they may not have the funds or resources to be able to do everything that they can. And so one of our goals is to be able to assist them however we can, to be able to help them achieve their goals.
[00:24:40] And so one of the ways that we do so is by doing that one for one program, but, you know, we also have other things like we have a scholarship that goes towards veterinary students and veterinary nursing students because, you know, students are heavily burdened by debts and loans these days.
[00:24:56] And so we want to help ease that burden for them. That’s awesome. [00:25:00] We’re
[00:25:00] Kellan Finney: also doing research. How do you balance like conducting meaningful research while trying to. Use that research to kind of
[00:25:10] Dr, Tim Shu: support the business. Yeah. So, you know, we, we take a look at what has the most evidence and what has the most potential to be able to, to benefit these animals out there.
[00:25:20] And it’s also. Based off of what’s available on the market. Right. You know, it wasn’t always the case that these different cannabinoids were available. And there, there are actually some specific components of the cannabis plant that I’m very interested in, but right now, no, one’s really extracting them.
[00:25:39] So it also depends on what’s available in the market. So right now, you know, a lot of extractors are. You know, they’ve got a lot of CBG, a lot of CBN, a lot of CBC, and it wasn’t always that way, but in the future, we’ll, we’ll start to see other cannabinoids be more available for research. You know, some, some people are doing CBT, some people are doing [00:26:00] the acids, like a CBDA CBGA and those are all.
[00:26:04] So we decided which
[00:26:06] Bryan Fields: areas you, you said before, there were certain areas that you were most excited about. Is there a certain cannabinoid in particular or a certain group of cannabinoids that you’re most excited?
[00:26:15] Dr, Tim Shu: Well, I mean, you know, everybody’s heard of CBD and everybody loves CBD and rightly so in terms of other cannabinoids that I’m super excited about.
[00:26:24] I mean, I would actually have to kind of, kind of flip that question. I’m more excited about. Our understanding of the endocannabinoid system, right? Because the, the endocannabinoid system is something that has been overlooked for decades. And unfortunately continues to, to get second billing, or you know, third billing, fourth billing.
[00:26:44] And I say that because this is something that is present in all vertebrae animals. It is deeply intertwined with all other physiological systems. It’s responsible for homeostasis in so many different aspects of our lives [00:27:00] yet it’s currently not being taught in most professional medical schools, veterinary schools or nursing schools.
[00:27:06] You know, I asked recent graduates that are doctors that are nurses. I asked them, you know, what did you guys learn about the endocannabinoid system in school? More oftentimes than not, the answer is nothing. And, and these are some of the doctors that are going to some of the best medical schools in the country.
[00:27:24] And so you think about that and you think about how important the endocannabinoid system is. And you think about the fact that they’re not teaching it in some of the best schools in the world. And that makes you wonder about the potential. Of the system and how much we’ll learn about it in the next five to 10 years and the impact that will have on our health and wellbeing.
[00:27:46] Bryan Fields: Are they surprised when you ask them that how much they’ve learned? They say nothing or they are, they kind of like taken back by, there could be an entire system I’ve never learned about take us through that. The conversation,
[00:27:55] Dr, Tim Shu: it’s an interesting conversation because it’s not something that they’ve ever heard about.
[00:27:59] And [00:28:00] so for, for a lot of them, it’s just like, oh, I’ve never heard of. And the in, in some cases it’s, it’s almost surprising because there’s a lack of interest because, because if they never heard about it, they don’t, they don’t understand the impact or the importance of it. Right, right. But, but for, for people that have been studying the endocannabinoid system, that.
[00:28:22] Mentality is shocking. Because we know about how important the endocannabinoid system is, but to hear that it’s not being taught in some of the best schools in the country, which were some of the best schools in the world will look back on it five to 10 years from now and will, will think, wow. Can you believe that there was a time where schools weren’t teaching about the Indo-Canadian, but do you think it’s going to
[00:28:42] Kellan Finney: be the catalyst that actually forces these schools to adopt this kind of discipline or topic?
[00:28:50] Dr, Tim Shu: If you will. It’s a great question. And I think it’s. One, what we’ve seen over the years is the clients or the patients actually going to [00:29:00] their doctors and saying, Hey, I’ve been using CBD, I’ve been using cannabis. And this is the thing that has worked well for me. This is what we’ve seen in doctors.
[00:29:09] People come back to them and say, this is what’s worked for me. CBD has been working for me. Cannabis has been working for me and then they have to ask, okay, well, why is that the case? You know, what, what is it about cannabinoid therapeutics? That’s actually working. I as a medical professional, have an obligation to look into this, to understand.
[00:29:24] What this is, and if it’s beneficial for my patients, then I have a moral and ethical obligation to understand why. And if I can assist them in improving their health and wellness through cannabinoid therapeutics, through the understanding of the endocannabinoid system, then I need to do so. Right. So that’s one.
[00:29:42] The other avenue comes from, let’s say a kind of a top down perspective. We know that pharmaceutical companies are developing drugs that specifically target the endocannabinoid system. And you know, right now we have Epidiolex, which is CBD that has been FDA approved. [00:30:00] Now, now doctors are forced to.
[00:30:02] Understand this, right. Well, this is an FDA approved drug, so, so why has this FDA approved drug been approved for certain forms of seizures and in the future? We’ll see more of that, right? Just an example is there’s pharmaceutical companies out there that are, are targeting specific enzymes that are involved with the endocannabinoid system.
[00:30:23] Right? So one of them is an endocannabinoid re-uptake and. And so what this drug does is it prevents the endocannabinoids from being taken into cells and broken down. So what that does is increases your endocannabinoid tone. So you’re circulating levels of a Nanda might in to AIG, and this can have different effects.
[00:30:42] And so when these drugs get FDA approved from the pharmaceutical companies, you know, we all know the pharmaceutical company does a very, very good job. Of educating doctors. Right? I mean, they, they did, they, they have their ear. That’s the reality of it. And so when, when pharmaceutical companies get these drugs, FDA [00:31:00] approved that specifically target the endocannabinoid system doctors will absolutely be hearing about it.
[00:31:05] Do you think
[00:31:06] Kellan Finney: legalization would also probably facilitate that from an educational standpoint? Or do you think it’s going to have to come from like the institutions that kind of run the information.
[00:31:17] Dr, Tim Shu: Yeah, it’s not a binary, it’s a combination of everything, right? So federal legalization will certainly help.
[00:31:24] But you know, now, now that hemp and its extracts are legal, you know, everybody is able to access CBD
[00:31:32] Bryan Fields: since you’ve been in the cannabinoid industry, what has been the biggest misconstrue?
[00:31:37] Dr, Tim Shu: I think, you know, honestly, one of the biggest misconception is the demonization of THC. Right. And that comes from, you know, almost a century of prohibition that, that THC is something that just gets you high in THC is something that’s that just ruins your life, which is absolutely not the case.
[00:31:53] THC does have medicinal benefits and you know, to, to deny that isn’t to say that it doesn’t have any sort of [00:32:00] medicinal benefit is intellectually dishonest. So that’s one thing that I would love to see changed. And you know, I, I hear it a lot from certain communities that tend to demonize THC.
[00:32:11] And that’s unfortunate because there are a lot of benefits that can come from THC and the, the, so we just need to change our attitude about that. That’s really all set.
[00:32:21] Bryan Fields: If you could sum up your experience in a main takeaway or lesson learned to pass onto the next generation.
[00:32:28] Dr, Tim Shu: That there’s always opportunities in our life to stand on the right side of history.
[00:32:33] And the way that we want to navigate our lives is to make the choices that our future selves will be proud of. So I encourage everyone to, to have that perspective because really the best that we can do in our lives is to leave this world a better place than we found it. You know, all of us are here because of the work and efforts of those that have come before us.
[00:32:59] [00:33:00] And we reap the benefits from that. The best that we can do is to be able to make this world a better place so that the generations that come after us can live better lives than what we’ve lived. It’s beautiful. All right.
[00:33:12] Bryan Fields: Dr Shu. What is the number one takeaway animal lovers should know about cannabinoid
[00:33:19] Dr, Tim Shu: therapeutics for their pets?
[00:33:21] It absolutely, it has potential benefits, but you know, don’t think of it as a, as a one size fits all. And don’t think of pharmaceuticals as As terrible things. Right. I, what I always encourage people is to, to get away from this trap of binary thinking, you know, people tend to want to silo things in their mind.
[00:33:41] You know, things are either black or white things are either zero one. And that’s because it’s, it’s easy for us. Right. It’s it’s an evolutionary advantage and add adaptation. Right. You know, when we were cavemen and things are either. Safe or not, but you know, we’re past that now. So for everything there is a time and a place, right?
[00:33:58] Like I mentioned [00:34:00] before sometimes pharmaceuticals are going to be much, much better. Sometimes cannabis can be a much better option. Sometimes a mix or combination of the two can be a better option. But do so under the guidance of a health professional, that’s trained in able to evaluate this from a scientific and medical perspective.
[00:34:18] Kaelyn
[00:34:18] Kellan Finney: change saves time. So I would say that if you’re going to treat or take any cannabinoid for on the additional benefit in your life, or to benefit your animals life, I would say that don’t expect it to be kind of like a magic pill and, you know, change takes time. So these kinds of medications take while for change to.
[00:34:39] Dr, Tim Shu: What do you
[00:34:39] Bryan Fields: think, Brian? Yeah, I think those are, those are all really good. And I think there’s different products for different people, different dogs. And I think not everything should be a one size fits all. I think both of you said really, really strong points. And I can think back to multiple conversations where people have leaned to us and say, Hey, I’ve tried this product for my dog.
[00:34:57] He didn’t have anything. It didn’t show any [00:35:00] effects. It doesn’t work well. It’s like, okay, where’d you get the product from? And then kind of certainly back in Dr. Shoe, like what you said, look into the product, make sure what you’re giving your pet is exactly what it says, consult your doctor on that. It should always be the same thought process.
[00:35:14] And I think sometimes people, they hear these conceptual ideas and they want things to work so bad, but they don’t go through the necessary steps to make sure. The product they’re selecting is the right one. I think sometimes they’re too trusting of just seeing a product and hearing about it versus kind of doing the steps, checking the COA,
[00:35:31] Dr, Tim Shu: doing some
[00:35:31] Bryan Fields: individual research, reaching out to their vet, looking on sites like yours and kind of taking those next steps to make sure that they’re, they’re selecting the right type of products.
[00:35:40] So, Dr. Shu, before we wrap, where can our listeners get in touch with you?
[00:35:43] Dr, Tim Shu: Learn more? Yeah, they can check out our [email protected] or that CBD hemp.
[00:35:50] Bryan Fields: Awesome. We’ll link those all up in the show notes. Thanks so much for your time. Thank you. [00:35:54] Dr, Tim Shu: Thanks for having me take care.[00:36:00]
